They're biz. [music] Their baz
I like that word
Their biz. >> You add a syllable style
That's my luggage
Has a hole in it
Has a stain on it
It's raggedy as hell, but it's mine. >> My baggage is pink and sparkly and it's got a lot of holes in it, but at least it's mine
I Bro, I agree cuz I'm a huge fantasy. >> He's calling me girl
It is so funny to me. [laughter] >> You're one of the girlies today
Okay
Hi angels
Welcome back to another episode of Booked Blonde and Busy because the hottest girls and today guys read
I'm Olivia Pontton and today we are joined by a licensed therapist who has probably been on your for you page, Kier Gaines
His book came out in early September and I am so excited because that means I get to ask him a lot of the questions that I'm genuinely curious about in my own uh personal life
So without further ado, gear, welcome to Booked Fun and Busy
Thank you for having me
I feel so booked, so blonde, and so busy right now. >> So blonde right now
It's [laughter] a state of mind
That's what I say
So before we get into it, we want to do the beverage of the day, which we have some uh unpopular opinions [laughter] about this
So this is the poppy
This is the sour apple. >> Are they a sponsor? >> No. >> Okay. >> No sp You can talk if you want to. >> Hey, I just I'm just just trying to make sure I know where I am
Cheers. >> Cheers. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Like I don't think I would pick this up on a on my 7-Eleven run, unfortunately. >> It's not for me
I'm sure they have other delicious flavors, but that one is not that is outside my ministry. >> That's [laughter] kind of it
So, for people who are listening right now or watching [clears throat] >> and they might not know you, can you give me like a little a little rundown? >> Yeah, sure
For sure
What's up, y'all? Hey, everybody
My name is Kier Gains
I am a licensed therapist
I am an author
I have a brand new book that's out
It's called It All Starts When You Do: How to Do the Real Work of Self-Healing
Uh I am a content creator
I am a keynote speaker
I'm a podcast host
And I truly believe that people are capable of making good decisions
We don't have an information issue
Sometimes we have an instruction issue
So that's why I wrote my book. >> You're like, you wanted to say period. >> Yeah. >> You I saw it
I saw it on the tip of [laughter] your tongue. >> Sometimes when I do my podcast, I literally have to like undo the things that I would normally say in real life. >> Why? >> Because it's just I'm like period
Like I just shut up. >> People [laughter] >> people come here for you
So just you know >> I know >> let it all hang out
Let it chopper fly. >> All right. >> So book fun and busy is about misconceptions and the way that we like to challenge them
So, what's what do you think is a misconception that people normally get about you? >> Oo. >> Uh, I think that I'm aggressive. >> Really? >> Yeah
I mean, I walked in and I hugged you and we're smiling. [laughter] Like, it's it's different
But I don't have um the older I get, >> I have less of a desire to have the mask on that makes other people feel comfortable sometimes, >> like laughing at jokes that aren't funny or like encouraging people like egging them on when I really don't care. >> I don't feel that as much
So, I don't like I don't have a resting smile anymore
I just have a >> resting middle-aged man face
And it's it's not always happy
And I think people mistake that for being aggressive
Well, really, I'm just minding my business. >> Now, we're going to get into your book
Give me like a 60-second pitch or give the audience a 60-second pitch. >> Okay. 60 seconds
Yeah
Let's let's condense >> this very nuanced thing down into 60 seconds. [laughter] It's so hard to talk about for that reason, just because there is so much to it
Um, so I wrote a book about healing because I'm a licensed therapist
So people come in and we pretty much do a thing like this where they get very comfortable
I learn a lot about them and I don't tell them what to do
We just kind of >> ask questions and we get comfortable moving around shame, blame, and guilt in order to get to the heart and the truth of things
And then we experiment with different ways that life can look
You know, if you're feeling depression or anxiety or you you're going through grief, you have a hardship in your life or even if it's not something that tultuous, maybe you just need a shift in perspective
That's what people come to me for
And what I realize is after a while, um, people really feel powerless in their own lives. >> They feel like they don't have control
They feel like they don't have autonomy
They feel like they're kind of waiting for something to happen until they can make their next step
And [clears throat] I don't necessarily think that that's true
I I don't think that you don't have control and autonomy
I think you don't feel like you have control and autonomy
So I wrote a book
I wrote the book because these are the steps that I take to bring people toward healing all the time
When you can separate your feelings from your identity. >> It's one thing to be angry
It's another thing to feel angry. >> It's another It's one thing to be a failure
It's another thing to feel like a failure
So how do you ask yourself? How do you interrogate your thoughts and feelings to make sure they don't overtake you and have you living in a reality that isn't really in front of you? >> Now I'm thinking about my life choices right now and I'm like, hm. >> Well, that is the goal of the book. [laughter] >> That's great. >> And to be able to walk you safely through it because you can think about your life choices and then >> Olivia, the first thing you can do is feel bad about yourself or feel stupid or feel guilty or embarrassed and and that's okay
But how do you walk safely through those very strong feelings >> while still working towards some sense of healing, some sense of resolve, and still building some sense of resilience all the way? >> You know, that's a part of claiming your baggage
When if if you get off the plane, you you take responsibility for y'all
That's my luggage
Has a hole in it, has a stain on it, it's raggedy as hell, but it's mine
And I can learn to like it
I can learn to love it
I can learn to manage it
I can learn to deal with it
But taking accountability for it and examining it and making sure that that you know that it's yours and you know how to fumble through it is the best thing that you can do for your own mental health and growth. >> My baggage is pink and sparkly and it's got a lot of holes in it
It's mine. >> That's right
It's yours and and it'll change over time
It may be less sparkly one day or you might get Yeah, it's okay
That's what happens in life
Or you may get it reupholstered and it may be a completely different color and not have those holes in it anymore and look unfamiliar to you, but it's still very much so yours. >> You [snorts] use a metaphor [clears throat] in the book about a pebble
I thought it was really funny
I really enjoyed that. >> What do you think is your pebble? >> My pebble? >> Mhm. [snorts] [sighs and gasps] >> I'm not going to give you a bold answer. a legitimate one. >> Um, what is the pebble in my shoe right now? For those that don't know, a pebble is something that you know when you have a pebble in your shoe, it's what inspired [clears throat] me to write the book
You can keep walking with it and it it hurts, but it's not killing you. >> Um, but the longer you walk with it, the more painful it becomes
And sometimes we don't stop and take the pebble out
We just keep walking because we think it's not bothering us that much until it is
And then even when we remove the pebble, the pain is still there. >> Um [snorts] the pebble in my shoe right now is being present. >> Being present
I think that there's a part of me that believes that if I just keep going and I just keep moving, eventually the ability to be more present will just land in my lap
My conscious mind knows that that's not true
So I use tools like just changing my perspective
It's it's not always that I'm not present
I'm growing into the understanding that my idea of presence just looks different
It may not look like being able to sit in the moment and internalizing every single thing that's going on with me in real time
My presence is more reflective
So after the situation happens, after the high [clears throat] emotions, after the moment, I'm able to sit and think
And while I'm not being present with the moment, I'm being present with the memory of it
I have to take into consideration what my brain chemistry does. >> So you'll go through something
Sorry, I'm just understanding this
You'll go through something and then you'll sit down afterwards and you'll process and that's when you'll be present with the memory of it. >> Yeah, absolutely
Me being present in the moment is just not something that's always available to me. >> Why do you think that is? Because you're a parent and you're like paying attention to other people in your life or what? [laughter] >> Uh I think it's a little bit of everything to be honest
I think that's just not the way my brain is constructed
I think that things have happened to me in my life that given me an aversion to sitting in the moment
Um I think that the way my brain is wired is uh I'm I do a lot of thinking and not a lot of experiencing sometimes
So sometimes I'll do something like um instead of just walking really fast down the street, I'll slow down
Hey, whoa, why am I in a rush? Slow down just a little bit
Instead of eating really fast, I'll slow down
I'll ask myself questions
What does this food taste like? What does it remind me of? Does it bring up a memory? What's the consistency? Is it chewy? >> Is it soft? Is a little mushy? Is the first bite different than the second bite? I try to force myself to slow down to give myself a better chance of experiencing the thing. >> H interesting
I've literally never done that ever in my life
Well, sometimes I calm down, but like >> I think I'll have like mornings where I have that where I'm like, "Okay, this morning is going to be a slow morning." Mhm. >> Whereas, especially in New York, I mean, I'm sure you can understand when you're here, like you you did three things today
You're just like bop b every day here
It's like I'm constantly going from this to this to this to that
And it's like >> to a certain extent >> like I just got to slow down
I'm like I need to take a vacation from my vacation from this from that
And I'm like I this is unrealistic
Like people don't get a vacation every single month
Like this is crazy
So, you have to find ways to not make your dayto-day so repetitive is not the correct word, but um >> like on a constant cycle of chaos. >> Can I challenge you really quickly cuz you got a lot of followers
You're very public facing. >> It's different when you're public facing
You can't just always go into a restaurant, sit [clears throat] >> sit in the corner by yourself, eat, scroll on your phone, and maybe have a cry. >> Mhm
Christ [laughter] >> you know, without anybody noticing >> this
You It's different
You have to cater your restorative practices to your experience. >> You also don't live like a average person's life
You know, you're in front of microphones, you're in front of a camera
People don't know as much about the average person that walks down the street next to them in New York City as they may know about you. >> Okay, that's valid
I see where you're coming from
Cuz for the most part, it's like I would say I pretty much live I think I live a pretty normal life
Like I don't let things like that
Like I'll go to the cafe and I'll cry
A girl will come up and ask for a picture as I'm like balling [laughter] my eyes out and I'm like, "Bro, read the room." >> Like I remember so vividly I used to date someone that went to UCLA
This was like ages ago
And we were in the middle of a a heated argument, like a screaming argument
M >> I'm balling my eyes out
We are going at it
This poor little girl comes up to me and she's like, "Hey, can I have a pig?" As I'm like screaming, crying
I was like, "Are you kidding me?" You want a picture with me like this >> right now? >> Like I would love to see that picture
I'm not going to lie to you
It would bring up a lot of trouble. >> You took the picture. >> Oh yeah
I'm going to say no
I'm never going to say no. [laughter] >> But that's another thing like when you're public facing there's an expectation that and and I don't know how you feel about this
You can share if you want, but there's an expectation that you have to always be accepting of everybody's >> um desire to be a part of your moment or to just capture a moment with you
Everyone's constantly like this
And they don't mean any harm
They just they love you
They see your pictures
They hear your story
They read they listen to your podcast
They have some sort of relationship with you, even if it's just one-sided
So when they see you, that's an opportunity for them to connect with you
Meanwhile, you're dying. when you having the worst moment of your life
Yeah
But there's an expectation for you to deliver or perform or appear [clears throat] a certain way and that takes something special out of you and you have to have different restorative practices. >> Yeah
So that's interesting
I just always try to view it as like I'm lucky to even be in the situation
So even if I'm like down bad about something, I try not to like let it actually bother me
How do you deal with that? Like if you're going through something in a public, like say you're at the mall and you're like, "Oh, I'm just trying to find these clothes or something like that and you're like freaking or something's bothering you and then someone comes up to you into the middle." Like, how do you deal with that? >> So, it happens a lot. >> Um, I'll be out with my kids
They'll be screaming, having note downs
My kids don't care that daddy's on TV and people know him
They don't care, you know? They don't care
That's the guy that tells me no to candy
That's all they know
And um sometimes people will come up and they'll ask for a picture or they'll want to share a moment that helped them out >> or or saw them through something that was really difficult and I'm just really honest with it
Say, "Hey man, I really appreciate the love, but right now is not a good moment
I'm so sorry, man. >> That's nice." >> You know what happens when I say that? Nothing
People always understand. >> Really? >> Always understand. >> Wow. >> You can say no. [laughter] >> Wow
That's >> You can say no
And it's so liberating to say [clears throat] no cuz in many ways I'm sure that powers them to do the same but hey I really it's I'm not showing you away. >> I'm not um I'm not denying you at all but just well I guess I am in a way but this is just really not I'm having a really human moment right now in advance
I really really appreciate you understanding. >> That's nice
Maybe if I'm having a mental breakdown in public I should try that. >> Try it. >> Be like I'm sorry I'm not okay
So look, this is what I talk about in the book
So I talk about practicing doing the thing. >> So let's say you have a hard time saying no to people
You want to start saying no when it's inconsequential. >> When there are no there's nothing that's going to happen that was going to make you feel bad in the long run
I started practicing in the mall when people will walk up and say, "Hey, you want to try this cologne?" No. >> Hey man, can I clean your shoe? No
Knock on my door
Hey, I'd like to sell you
No. >> [laughter] >> And the more I said no and got comfortable saying saying no and knowing that that person's world isn't over after I say no, I became more confident in my ability to say no
And now it's easier, not easy, not easy, but easier to say no in more consequential moments. >> A topic that I saw that you've talked about, but not too much
I want to challenge you with u a scenario
A scenario kind of. >> Okay
You've talked a lot about how social media is different for men versus women. >> Mhm. >> And social media is specifically marketed for to make us depressed
FOMO, feeling of unfulfillment that we don't have something. >> Oh, yeah
Social media is designed to make you feel like you're missing out
Yeah. >> How do you think specifically it affects men versus females? Because I get a female perspective
Okay. because my for you pages like all the makeup that I need to buy, all the parties that I wasn't invited to, all the vacations that I was left out of, like do men feel that cuz I feel like there's less males like posting like their shopping haul, [laughter] you know what I mean? >> Yeah
No, I I think it's there's there's a version of that specifically for men
So, let's let's put men in different categories because there are different factions of men, huh? Divergent
There's different factions of men and we're attracted to different things
So there's like this looks maxing crowd like these guys that are looks maxing, right? Listen, I come from the era if you ugly you just you just accept it, bro. [laughter] Like you just you just own your uglification
But um there's those guys and I think the way that it's marketed, it excludes men who feel like their physical traits are inadequate
So, hey man, you got a you got a jawline, you you got skinny shoulders, >> and it's it's not really clear what they're doing it for, but it's just saying that the peak the ideal of peak masculinity is this and you're not that, so you need to get here
Then it's like the fitness bros, you know, look at your skinny arms and your little twig legs, bro
A real man can deadlift 400 lb easy
You're not a real man cuz you can't do this
And then there's this unique genre catered toward married men or men who are in long-term partnerships
You know, your your your partner, she doesn't respect you
In order to earn the respect, you have to not care
It's it's like >> steering men in the wrong direction with generalized BS
And for the longest time, >> men had this kind of like moral uh whatever where it's like, huh, look, women are so susceptible to social media
Look, you can just tell them what feels good and they'll believe it
Mhm. >> And then here comes red pill content
When you're telling you're telling men what feels good, you're validating their experiences that don't get validated anywhere else
And that's the honey, but aha, here comes the poison. >> In order to do that, you have to be this type of human being. >> Um, so I I think it's very similar in terms of the exclusion saying that masculinity looks like this and you're not a real man if you don't do it, but just in different genres
It's in different fonts
And if you really want to make a man feel terrible, make him believe that his masculinity
Just minimize it in some way. >> Do you think men ever get threatened? Okay
I This is just something that I do with when I meet a man in my life that is >> not even in like a flirtatious term
Like if I'm going out to dinner and there's a guy and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Like he just has such a feminine energy and aura to him. >> What's What does that mean? Um just a little bit like how they carry themselves
They're just a little bit more like oh like >> a >> little bit more whimsy. >> Yeah
But also just like the way they kind of speak would kind of be or the things that they talk about or the jokes that they make
It's just like oh I can just tell you're like a little bit for more for the girls
Like not that you're gay by any means but that you're just like a little bit more like in touch with that side
Okay. >> And I've been I I used to not tell men that
Now I just do it and I'm just like, you know, you really have like a strong feminine sense and maybe that's because you were close with your mom or you have a bunch of sisters or your you and your girlfriend are like inseparable
And a lot of men recently have been taking it in a good way as a compliment
Whereas I feel like >> maybe like 5 years ago when I would see guys and I would just kind of like point that out to them, they would get very offended by that. >> H that's interesting
Mhm. >> I don't
By the way, this is becoming less terrible the more I drink it. >> It's a little bit less nasty
Um, you know, I I think it just depends
It depends on where someone's masculine identity is
Like you just when I walked in, I said something
You like, "Girl, when my wife first started doing that, I had to correct her every single time." >> Really? >> Yeah
Like [clears throat] I'm I'm not a girl
And I'm a Livia
I'm a dude
Like I'm a dude dude
It's I'm the dudiest dude. like spitting on the ground, riding dirt bikes with your shirt off, fishing, like a [clears throat] scar just heal up type of dude. [laughter] Like, >> yeah, >> but it's I guess that doesn't bother me anymore because I just >> for one, she's not going to stop. [laughter] Like, she's going to keep doing it
But also, I it's it's a signal of how comfortable she is talking to me
You know, I don't I don't think anyone would define anything I do as like a flare of femininity
But I also am a licensed therapist
And the majority of my clients, believe it or not, are women
And really, oh, absolutely
People think I'm only a men's therapist. >> I have thought that. >> Everybody thinks that
No, I want to say at it
It fluctuates, but usually anywhere between 40 and 70% of my clients are women. >> Wow. >> Yeah
Ranging in age
Like not everybody not everybody is my age
Not everybody looks like me. >> Um, so in order to understand where they're coming from, >> you you kind of got to get in their world and get in their head space a little bit. >> How do you do that? um by being genuinely curious, genuinely caring
I actually want good outcomes for you
So, I ask questions >> and I ask where it's okay to push a little bit
Sometimes I say, "Hey, I want to challenge you a little bit." >> And [clears throat] sometimes she's not ready for that
And sometimes she is >> and it's going with the flow, going with her comfort, and still holding her in positive regard, believing that she's strong enough to persevere through these crazy challenges in her life, trusting her with the hard truth. >> Wow
Do you think you have predominantly more females because men are more scared to go to therapy? >> I think it's a lot of things
I think [clears throat] in one way men are a little bit more apprehensive to go to therapy
I think also therapy lends itself to the way that women communicate with other women more than the way that men communicate with other men. >> In Wait, expand on that
So they did a study that shows that often times women talk face to face like kind of how we're talking
I'm this is what I do for a living so I'm really comfortable with this is not a problem but men talk shoulderto-shoulder
Men don't really talk face to face
I don't know all the meta science behind it
It's a better question for a sociologist
I think it may be something about an immediate threat of danger like just the when you're face to face with another man there's always uh there's always space for violence
Yeah
Like it it can go down at any moment
But so when I'm having a therapy session with a woman, we can talk face to face and if it's effective, it's effective
If I'm having a therapy session with a man, there two things that I'll do
Sometimes we'll talk shoulder-to-shoulder >> and we might do like a puzzle or something just to just to get your mind off the awkwardness of having this type of intimate face to face conversation with not just another person, but with another man for the first time
Or we'll toss a football around or we'll walk
If if if wellness wants men to be better, men have to want to be better. one, but two, you got to meet men where they are and not just look at men as hairy, awkward women
Like it's that's not like men aren't just like like weird women
Men are men
It's a it's a totally different culture
And if >> if that's what you want for your client, you have to meet them there
When I was a teacher, we had a saying if a [clears throat] student doesn't understand, the teacher has to do a better job of teaching. >> And it's just saying like you got to meet people where they are if you want them to ascend where they need to be
What do you think the biggest difference between like a female client and a male client like versus like what they generally talk about or bring up? >> What do you mean? Explain it to me. >> For like me and my therapist, >> you got >> I've been going to her for it's our 10 year anniversary. >> Let's go
I started going to her when I was 14. >> And like I genuine like generally talk about like friendships, family, and like relationships. >> Do men normally talk about similar things or do they just kind of go off into like work, finances? >> Oh, I got you
I see what you're asking me. >> The difference between what men talk about and what women talk about in therapy is negligible
It's almost the same thing. >> Really? >> Yes
Every humans have the same difficulties
It's relationships
It's um the feeling that you have inside your own body
It's uncertainty about the future. >> Uh it's uncertainty about like your values and your moral compass changing a little bit. >> Um and it's trying to put words to feelings that you can't necessarily capture with words sometimes. >> You don't like that people put like an ed at the end of heal. >> I don't
Okay
Wait a minute, [laughter] man
You actually you know what you're talking about. >> Yeah
But like I don't agree with that. >> I think well for example girl I've been through some stuff but >> and I've done a lot of work on the things that I choose to heal
I put like my 10 toes down like I'm going to get better from this. >> Okay. >> Number one example like I did eating disorder for years
And while I definitely think eating eating disorders can come back, I would like to say that I'm like healed from it right now because I'm like, "Okay, it started
I like half healed from it
I relapsed
It got really really bad for a while there and then it eventually like I did the actual like science practice speaking to nutritionists figuring out the whole nine yards figuring out that you're like supposed to work out and eat something before like that was a minding revelation for Olivia
So, I just think the termin the maybe you don't heal from everything, >> but I think for some things there's like a little acceptance. >> Okay
I think you said it though, >> because >> you're not wrong. >> We don't agree, but you're not wrong. >> But you didn't say I am healed
You said I have healed. >> Okay. >> Have healed signifies the distance that you traveled in the journey
M >> I am healed says that I put a lid on that jar and it's just not a thing anymore
There used to be a show back in the day called West Wing
It was about like Martin Short was the president
It was a long time ago
It's okay
We got to do that
It's cool
But um in the show he said not Martin Short, Martin Sheen
Ah, thank you
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
I said Martin Short
No, that's totally different actor
It's fine
If you're under 30, you don't know what I'm talking about anyway
Just go with me. >> [clears throat] >> Um he there was a guy there who was an alcoholic and one of the people walked up to him
He said, "Hey man, congratulations
Like you're not an alcoholic anymore." He says, "No, I'm always one drink away from being an alcoholic again." >> He has healed, but he is not healed
It's it just it gives credence to the journey that you've gone on and the work that you do to maintain the status that you now have
And eating disorders are super super tricky. >> Yeah, >> they're very tricky
So congratulations to you on that
But yeah, you you have healed
You healed tremendously
It's just and I'm not trying to change your mind
Put a little bit more on top of it. >> I like challenging it up there cuz I'm like, "Wow, I have to deal with this rest of my life." [laughter] >> It's Listen, I I have depression. >> And depression is something I'm like, "Ah, I got to I got to deal with this for the rest of my life
I'll never be healed from it. >> It's that's not the way that thing works
I'll always have to deal with it
But I've been dealing with it for so long and I've managed it so effectively at times because we have regressions, right? Um I've I've dealt with it to the fact that I feel confident in my ability to continue to heal from it
I'm not in a rush
It's one of the uncomfortable truths I talk about in my book
I'm I'm not over something that happened to me, you know
I'm not in a rush to say it's over
Woo
The hard part is done
I'm past that
No, no, no
I'm I'm I won't be disillusioned by that
I'm still going to deal with it
Would I like for things to be different? Absolutely
I like to never think about it
But that's not my reality
And I have to work within the confines of the reality that is mine, not the one that I wish was. >> I'm going to share an honest thing. >> Mhm. >> So, I had this friend for a few years
We had this like bond like almost like a sisterly bond and I think it rooted from the fact that we enjoyed doing the same things and she was in my industry
So we traveled a lot together, we partied a lot together, we had all the same friends, we would talk to similar people
Um, and that was just kind of the root of it
And then like you're kind of talking, we started growing apart a little bit
She was a little bit younger than me and it got to a point where I was like, I can't be your friend anymore
Like the the decisions that you're making do not align with my morals. >> Like life decisions >> like >> or like decisions. >> Um like both. >> Okay. >> Like for example, she would like cheat on her boyfriend and then she'd expect me to make her feel better about it and I was like, "No, I don't agree with cheating." And I would tell her that
I'd be like, "I don't think what you did was okay." Okay
And then she like, "You're being such a bad friend." And I was like, "I get it that you want me to sit here and sympathize with you right now, but you also just ruined this poor guy's fault or poor guy's life >> and like I get it
Relationships are so complex." I'm like, "I'm sure there was something else going on." But >> so there was something like that
So we eventually stopped being friends
Nothing ever happened
There was no big fight
It was just more so like I stopped answering her, start stopped reaching out
If we were at similar parties, I wouldn't like be with her that whole night
I would go and um you know, make new friends or talk to other people I knew
And she started noticing and she was picking up and she'd call me more or she would use our like mutual friends to be like, "Oh, tell Olivia I miss her
Like I I want to get dinner with her this weekend or something like that." And I just wouldn't really reciprocate
And I would explain to those mutual friends like this is where I'm at with it
I don't feel comfortable having these conversations with her because I don't think she'll be able to understand, >> but also I'm not going to push my feelings aside just to make her feel comfortable. >> But in the past like 6 months, I've started missing her
And this probably happened like over 2 and 1/2 years ago. >> And I don't know why I'm missing her, but it's like, you know, when you're in a toxic relationship and the highs are really high and the lows are really low. and I missed the really highs, but then when we when we had the really low lows, I'm like, "Oh, I never want to speak to this person again." [laughter] >> So, like, what do you recommend? You can also ask questions. >> So, yeah, I have some follow-up questions
So, you said that she would call initially, like after the cheating thing, and I'm not I don't support that she called initially
You said that you wouldn't answer or you go to a party and you would hang with other people
Did you ever have a conversation with her that not inferred, not not hinted towards, but blatantly said, "Hey, I don't like the behavior that you're demonstrating, and I don't think I I want to talk to you anymore." >> I would say, "I don't like the I would tell her very openly, I don't agree with what you're doing
It makes me feel uncomfortable." But I wouldn't say like, "I don't want to be your friend." I would just like tell her, I don't respect this
If somebody were to be doing this to me, I would be very upset and very hurt
So you let her know where you stood with it morally. >> I was very open about like this
I don't agree with this, >> but you didn't have the direct conversation saying that I don't want to be your friend anymore
So there's a thing that happens here where there is you all are experiencing two different things
It sounds like to me one more clarifying question. >> When you would see her at a party, did you speak to her or did you just kind of like keep it cordial or did you just like hindest? >> Sometimes it would be cordial. >> Okay
Like I think in the beginning I would keep it very cordial
We'd be at like similar tables or similar dinners and we'd like wouldn't sit next to each other but we'd be close and we'd like you know sometimes talk and then now if I see her at a party I won't go up to her but she'll almost always come up to me and say hi. >> I was going to ask you is her energy about the same or is it has it changed over time? I think to her there was like a dip where she was like, "Okay, potentially she could understand that like I was drifting." But then that was a very short dip, I would say
And then ever since then >> in person, it's always been like she has been trying to mend that, >> like reconnect
Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So I I think that there is something in the fact that you all never had the exact conversation that said the exact thing >> that you want to experience in this friendship
It's like I don't want to talk as much and then there's not an opportunity to fix it unless you do ABCD
I don't think this friendship is going to work
I am going to fall back
So there I try not to assume that anybody knows anything unless I told them that directly. no matter how obvious it is to me
Um, so I think like that part it it makes me wonder what her idea of everything was
If she really knows >> like she can probably guess from your conversations, but if she really knows why you all had that fracture and it also sounds like you all's friendship was based on shared experiences
You all had a lot of shared experiences, which is amazing
It's not enough to sustain a friendship. >> Yeah
And that's what like I used to drink a lot of alcohol as one does when you're like 20 years old
And I think a lot of our situational friendships would be around the fact that both of us partied literally six nights a week
Like wherever we were, we could count on like, "Oh yeah, I'm sure she's going to be going out tonight
I'll just go out with her." >> And it's a good time. >> It's a good time
But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be the best of friends
Like I don't drink I'm currently not drinking alcohol for a few months
And it's like I definitely notice that like I will go in and out of different friendships when I'm not drinking versus when I'm drinking because you have your drinking friends and then you have your non-drinking friends. >> Yeah
And and and there's a good argument that it's not super substantive when there is other things involve alcohol, whatever
But also I think that my if I was I don't know everything, but my assignment to you especially if you say you miss her, which would make sense
You don't stop loving somebody because they make decisions that you don't agree with. >> It sounds like you all didn't really have any I hate the term closure cuz it's like perfect
It's like a balance
It's kind of not a real thing sometimes. >> But I think you all didn't have the conversation to let everyone know where everyone was
And also, I think there's a good argument that if she didn't really get a chance to know where you were and get the opportunity to change, not saying that she would. >> Um, so it makes sense that you miss her, but if you were to reach back out and talk to her, it would have to be for unselfish reasons
Not because I miss you, but because we need to complete this or even like, hey, it might not have been fair to you >> for me to just abruptly do it
This is where I was at the time
Perhaps I would handle that different Lee if I had another chance
But can we have a conversation about what happened? That way everybody in this this understanding or everybody in this friendship or exfriendship knows exactly what happened, what their role was, and how the other person felt
They don't have to draw on it
They don't have to try to >> um guess
They don't have to assume
They actually know
But yo, I'mma tell you, it's going to be a super super uncomfortable conversation and you may hear some things about yourself that you don't like. >> Yeah, I welcome that in. >> Okay, if we can w if we can welcome that in and we can be in a place where I don't know what you want to make amends for
Maybe it's good to think about what you want this end goal to be
What do you want her to walk away from that conversation with? But I just I think there were a lot of conversations that should have happened that didn't take place
I agree. >> Give it some thought
Give it some thought
Think about how you want to do it, but make sure it's not for selfish reasons. >> Make sure so that you both can get an understanding
Yeah. >> Anyways, so the last little section we're going to do is I'm going to give you like a book boyfriend
Like a book boy boyfriend fake term. >> Wait, hold on. [laughter] Describe it to me
What? >> Sorry
You didn't know what Acatar is
I really got to talk about this. [laughter] You got to slow it down for me. >> So, in these fantasy books or fiction in general, um obviously in most romance books, it is a man a man and a female getting together
These men, girls get really, really attached to and they become like your book boyfriend that you're obsessed with
So, I'm going to give you like three popular ones in my world and I want you to explain like why >> or why don't you therapize therap I like that word therapize
You had a silver
Now [laughter] >> I want you to give me like why do you think females, specifically young females, might be like obsessed with them. >> Okay. >> So, we have Zayen. >> That's not what I thought you meant by this at all, but I'm with you
Let's go. [laughter] >> So, we have Zayen from Fourth Wing
Okay. >> He's like brooding, super private
He lies to you constantly. >> Zayen, >> but he calls it like protecting
Oh, I didn't tell you because I'm just protecting you
Like when >> protecting you from what? Being sad or being disappointed? >> Yeah
Okay. >> And then >> that's okay. >> Like why does I'm protecting you read as love? >> Like oh he loves me because he's protecting me but it's just lying. >> Protection is weird
Protection is this like weird part of masculine identity that feels very uh supposed to institute a feeling of safety. >> But you can manipulate what you think protection is supposed to mean
Protection can also >> be control
You can say, "Oh, I'm just just trying to protect you." If your protection takes away somebody's autonomy, it's not protection anymore
If you're trying to stop, if your protection uh takes away my autonomy to decide whether to stay or leave because you're lying to me, that's not protection anymore
That's manipulation. >> I agree with that. >> I agree with that. >> A big caveat that he's like saving her from certain death. >> Oh yeah
This >> What is he saving her from? I don't [laughter] listen
I don't know
I don't know everything that's going on. [snorts] So he's like saving So Zaden in this book of Fourth Wing is like saving her from basically like dragons eating her. >> Okay. >> And like she's >> he's keeping something from her so the dragons don't eat her. >> Um he's keeping something from her so the rebels in the book like he's a part of the rebel group and she's not. >> Sorry this is getting really nitty-gritty. >> No, it's cool
Keep it
And there's like certain things with the parents that he's keeping away from her, but he's helping her not die during these like games, >> these trials as one might say >> for her to bond with a dragon. >> Okay, >> this is really getting into the nitty-gritty of it. [laughter] >> Okay, so there is an argument that his >> like he is kind of trying to protect her because he wants to save her because these situations if she knew certain information it could get her killed
It's still manipulation, though. >> Manipulation doesn't always mean that you mean somebody ill
Manipulation just means that you maybe withhold or you're trying to arrange the situation so that someone has a certain interpretation of what's going on. >> Agree. >> I stand on my argument
Even though it could it probably is helpful to her
I'm not denying that
But it's still manipulation
I wish them luck. >> That sounds like a crazy ass situation. >> Dragons
Yeah. >> Yeah
That's wild
The second one is a character from Red Queen right there. >> Okay. >> Um the main character Maven, he So his mother got into his head and took out his ability to love like actually did that and he knows that she did it and he remembers what that what he used to feel >> but he can't feel love anymore
So why >> that's so sad. >> I know
But why is a man telling us that he will never love us but he's going to try for you like as an exception? Like why do you think women are so drawn to like oh he doesn't like anyone but maybe he'll like me? >> It gives you a sense of exceptionality
Religion kind of works in the same way
It makes you feel exceptional
You are special compared to everyone else
There is a special place in my mind and in my heart for you
People are suckers for exceptionality
A a good comparative is when you have a friend who's a total like >> like a trash bot
You know, [snorts] they're they're trash person
You go to a restaurant, they're mean to the servers, they're mean to their other friends, but they're not mean to you
And you internalize that as I'm exceptional when in all actuality, it's just not your turn yet. >> Okay
Well, girls, now you know. >> Yeah
Don't fall for the exceptionality thing
A person is who they are
Just because you're exempt for the time being doesn't mean you'll be exempt forever. >> Yeah
So, the third one is Johnny from Binding 13. >> All these cool names
And then Johnny
Got Zaven, Maven, and Johnny. [laughter] All right, let's go. >> Well, Zaden and Maven are both from uh fantasy books
And then Johnny's from like a normal romance book. >> Of course he is. >> So, >> does he have eight pack abs? >> Yes. >> Of course he [laughter] does
Of course he does. >> So, Johnny's 18, star athlete carrying his entire family on his back
He's a but he's in constant pain because um of an injury that he had and was going through surgeries and like when you're an athlete you're and you've maybe hurt something but it's not bad enough to get surgery
You'll just kind of like teeter on that line of like oh I'll just be in pain for the next 6 months until season's ending or whatever
Um and he never asks anyone for help and doesn't tell he he doesn't tell anyone that he's in pain
Why is being like the only person that he would open up to so intoxicating? >> Oh, are you coming up with this off the top of your head? Cuz that's that's crazy
Um, so it's I think it's it's a variant of exceptionality, but how many times have you heard someone say, um, you know, oh, he trusts me with all of his secrets
He never told anybody, but he tells me
Uh it's there's something in that level of having a person who doesn't open up to anyone else open up to you that creates a bond kind of you know how you talk about your friend and y'all had a bond over shared experiences. >> Think of it like a diet version of that. >> Um it's it's something that you share and it's a level of intimacy that is a physical. >> It's very intimate and therapy sessions is kind of like that
It's an intimate relationship between you and your therapist a lot of times because they know something that you don't that you don't share with anyone else
And I think there's something to be said about >> being that vulnerable with someone
I think we talk about that a lot
But there's also something to be said about having someone be that vulnerable with you
You see a part of them that no one else understands
You know them in a very special way
Um and it also speaks to trust. this person must really trust me if they were ever able to tell me all this information and know that I won't tell anyone else. >> So, it's it's just another level of exceptionality
It's just in a different font
H I'm just thinking about that and like putting that into my life like when like that friend that I was telling you about like she had a lot of like the exceptional like mindset like she would be mean to everyone but then she wouldn't be mean to me and I would think I would be like on top of the world or like I I have another friend who I'm kind of going through this right now where she has the same thing
She picks like a best friend of the month and then you'll be the most important person in her life for a month and then she won't talk to you after that
And it's like I wonder why people do that. getting your needs met. >> It feels really good to get your needs met
If I can if I can take my little electric car and I can fill up at your station once I get what I need, our relationship doesn't have a lot of other touch points. >> So, what else would I do with it? And if I know I can come to you and I can be filled up and then I [clears throat] can leave and when I come back, you'll let me fill up again and I can leave
As long as that cycle isn't disrupted, why the hell would I ever stop? >> Very valid
No, no one says, "Oh my god, this place keeps giving me free food
I'm never coming back." Said nobody ever. >> Literally nobody
Interesting
Well, well, thanks for coming on Book Fun
I'm busy. >> Yeah, I'm so happy. >> Yo, this was a great conversation
I had so much fun. >> Me, too
I learned a lot. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to go home and literally journal and be like, "Okay, what do I think about this? What do I think about that?" >> Yeah
Write it down
Get it all out. >> Well, this will have been by the time that we post this video. >> Mhm. >> So, get it
Is it hard copy? Is it on Kindle? >> Uh, it's on everything
Audio book
I narrated myself, by the way. >> I was literally That was one of my questions that I was going to ask you because I think when people audio audio narrate their own books that it's like 10 times more of an incentivi >> 10 times more >> like is a reason to listen to it. >> Yeah
Hold on
You got me thinking
Is that the word >> incentive? >> Incentive. >> Incentive. >> It's 10 times more of an incentive or an incentiv
Hey, who cares? The sentence is done
Yes
And that's your copy right there
Thank you. >> Can you sign up for me? >> Of course I can. [laughter] Absolutely. >> Thanks, guys
Well, thank you guys for watching
Bye. [music]
