Victoria Aveyard says Red Queen's biggest twist came from the X-Men playbook

So, you love Orlando Bloom. >> Love >> and Hawkeyes in general. >> Speculum in Doctor said, "What do you do?" I said, "I write books." He goes, "What kind of books?" >> Elevator pitch for one. >> I was a weirdo. [laughter] >> Okay

And I figured out how to monetize that. >> And it works. >> It works

For now, it works. >> Like, do you have to almost act like the plot twist isn't happening cuz you almost have to convince yourself that these characters are >> Oh, I know everything

I'm God. [laughter] Hi angels

Welcome back to another episode of Booked Blonde and Busy

Today I am so beyond excited to have Miss Victoria Aveyard here

As you guys know, I've never reread a book ever besides Red Queen

It was very specifically in Hawaii

I was like, I needed a book that was going to hit home and I knew I was going to be like mind by [laughter] um for a lack of better terms

And so I brought this book because I remember finishing it and just sitting there in my apartment being like what just happened? Okay, wait, pause really quick before we go on to this

I want to talk about our beverage of the day because I want to do something red because obviously Red Queen

So this is just like a raspberry strawberry smoothie and we can't do an Agrroni because it's 10:00 in the morning

So, I'm sorry to disappoint, but here we are

Taste test. >> Oh, I already tasted it

It's good

It's good. >> Me, too

But I don't know what this white stuff is. >> Coconut. >> We'll cut that. [laughter] >> Don't [snorts] Don't tell people that. [gasps and laughter] >> Okay

So, for people who haven't read Red Queen or if you haven't read it in a bit of time, we're going to give a little synopsis. >> I can tell you right now, I can pitch Red Queen in my sleep

I did it once in the middle of a gyneological appointment. >> Speculum in

Doctor said, "What do you I said, "I write books." He goes, "What kind of books?" >> Elevator pitch one. >> And I I looked him dead in the eye

I was like, "Oh, I wrote this book called Red Queen." He goes, "Oh my god, I've seen that on the shelf

You're all done." [laughter] >> I Oh, I can't imagine that one. >> Yeah. >> Okay, now you do the elevator pitch. >> Okay

Red Queen is about a girl in a world divided by those who have superhuman powers and those who do not. and she discovers that somehow she has superhuman powers even though she shouldn't

And she gets pulled into the world of the superpowered elite where she is now torn between >> two half brothers who happen to be the princess of the kingdom because of course they are. >> They have to be, you know, >> and at the same time a rebellion of the underclass is brewing and she also gets pulled into that as sort of their spy or their man on the inside

And she's trying to navigate all of these things while also navigating being a person she never thought she was and growing into who she's going to become. >> Wow. >> And all those mistakes that she makes along the way. >> It's a great elevator pitch. >> I've had a long time to put it together. [laughter] >> That's the thing though is film school background

I had to take pitching classes

I had to learn how to pitch. >> That's a class. >> Mhm

Okay

Before we get into that, [laughter] fill me in on the process of Red Queen because I know it started during during while you were at film school

Very cinematic. >> Yes

So, that's that's where my background is and where I always >> I always uh I'm a very visual writer

I I picture it in my head very very vividly when I'm writing and sort of my job or what I'm always attempting to do is to somehow transfer what I see into your head

That's always what I'm trying to do

And I see it down to like the shots, the cinematography, the music cues

Like that's how intense it is for me

I can watch scenes in my head like a movie if I want to

Um, >> that's Wait, [laughter] >> that's crazy

I don't have that ability. >> It's it's it's really strange

I can put on a song and be like, "Okay, I'm going to think of this scene." And I just watch it in my head as I walk. [laughter] But, uh, yeah

So, film school, I went to study screenwriting

I moved from a small town in Massachusetts to Los Angeles

That was a huge culture shock in a really good way

It was a really good exposure to like the bigger world and different people

And then also um the great thing about USC where I went, yes, very specific film school education like >> BFA, but it's also a massive university with a ton of different facets of student life and like a great football team, a big like Greek community, lots of different people

And so I feel like I got a full college experience while also getting a really intense sort of film degree at the same time

Um, >> and I gravitated towards writing films because I loved movies

I also grew up loving books, but books were so intimidating

The idea of writing a book, um, something that long with that many words, I just didn't understand how to do it

And while the film industry is also pretty inscrutable, [clears throat] you still sort of know, okay, you go to film school, you go to Los Angeles, you become an assistant, there's some sort of pathway, not necessarily to success, but you can actually see the steps if you can make the steps

Whereas with books, it seemed just like ah people who write books, like that's just not something that I have access to. >> So I went into film school, learned how to write from a screenplay perspective, from uh learned [clears throat] storytelling that way

And then my senior year of college, I was interning over at Fox and they had like an incubator, a writer incubator

And my prof uh >> what is a writing incubator? >> They basically had a paddic of writers of screenwriters and one side of the room uh was comedy and one side was action adventure. and Fox

This was a great idea and I wish they still did it, but they were essentially paying, >> I think it was eight on either side, eight professional screenwriters to come up with original ideas and write screenplays

And the ones they wanted to, you know, fasttrack into production, they would

And it never really panned out, but it was a great It was almost like a patron situation where they were allowing people to live and work and have the money to do that. >> Yeah

And be creative at the same time. >> Yes

Exactly

And so it was a really cool idea

Um and >> so that's what you were doing. >> I was the assist the assistants intern. >> Love. >> And I was the only one who knew how to use Photoshop

So I made all the pitch decks. [laughter] >> But um when I know and then um I got the job because I loved Game of Thrones so much and we just like talked about Song of Fire. >> I'm watching Game of Thrones for the first time. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my gosh

It's actually really funny that you bring that up because I was talking about Tempest this morning and I was weirdly enough thinking that like Game of Thrones dynamic was very relevant in the book because of all the different characters and like the different kind of the islands and I felt like that was kind of like the seven kingdoms in my head

I thought it was a coincidence because I'm watching it right now

Oh, I'm a huge huge fan

And I will also say the reason I gone into Song Advice and Fire was in college

I had a class on uh TV writing and the professor >> was like, "Hey guys, my friend George has a TV show coming out next year on HBO

I think some of you guys will like it." And one other guy in the class leaned over to me and he's like, "I know what show he's talking about

It's called Game of Thrones

It's about It's based on these books

You would love them, Victoria." And so I was like, "Okay." >> And it wasn't out yet or was >> it wasn't out yet

And the professor was just like my friend George >> who is George R

Martin. >> Yeah. >> And so I ripped through all the books that were out at that time

And so he so George R

Martin is also a screenwriter

Like that's his writing background

And so his books are written

I would my my aspiration is to write in a similar way

But the way that his books are written, >> you're covering the last page of the chapter because if your eye goes to the last page of the chapter, that moment, you're going to realize something crazy has just happened and you're actually going to spoil the ending if you don't read it at the exact moment you get there

And so when I wrote a Red Queen or when I write any book that I write now, I [clears throat] try and do that where the end of the chapter is another crazy hook that keeps you going. >> That's why I think you're a great writer [laughter] because I think you need sometimes when there's nothing like nothing happens at the end of the chapter

I'm like, >> no, you need to be pushing momentum. >> Yeah

I'm like, I need I need a reason to flip the next page and not just be like, okay, it's 11:00 p.m. at night

I should probably go to sleep now

No, I never want that to feel like you've hit a low in the books. [clears throat] Even when you need those moments of low, like even the quiet moments between between characters, there still has to be some sort of pace and momentum >> and at least for me thing that is pulling you through the work and that's very screenwriting based

But yeah, back to how did I start writing Red Queen? I was in that I was interning and the producer had me reading the Amazon self-publish list because at that time it was >> 2012. 50 Shades of Gray had just gone to auction and we were all watching that auction happen like live on deadline like refreshing the auction update

Wow. >> Wool had just happened for Hugh Howie and he was like, "Okay, the Amazon self-publish list, they're going to there's going to be more jewels in there that we're going to find." >> And so I started reading it and I realized, wait a second, I was so intimidated out of pros writing, so intimidated out of novel writing

Now I understand storytelling from a screenwriting perspective and I'm realizing it's actually not that different. the formats are different, but the bones are the same. >> And so it brought me back in thinking, wait, I can actually like I have skill and training and I know how to do this now

And that was the first moment where my brain kind of clicked over to >> you could also write books, not just screenplays. >> And um >> so it started as a screenplay, >> not really

So, I actually had a professor who our very first day of film school said, "Unless you're writing um something that could be made for under $10 million, a horror, a comedy, something small and contained, [snorts] write the book instead." [laughter] >> Okay

I want to go into the world building of Red Queen because like we were talking about earlier with the pacing, you do a great job of creating this magical world

Obviously, we have the red bloods versus the silver bloods

And I just I had such a perfect vision of the beginning, first like three chapters of what [clears throat] she was going through. >> I I really felt like I was there and I feel like that's an ability that not a lot of people have. explain [laughter] how you kind of got into the idea of like red versus silver because it kind of almost feels like modern day society a little bit like New York LA versus like a lot of the other stuff that's going on in the world and I feel >> like do you see the the Tik Toks ever of during like the Met Gala and it's like from district 12 >> I feel like it kind of gave that same emotion or feeling so explain that >> real and just in to place us in time like Red Queen when I wrote it, I was very much in the shadow of the Hunger Games and I and those books came out when I was in college

We went to go see the movies

It was the biggest thing in the world

Divergent was happening at the same time

And when I first pitched the idea of writing Red Queen to the manager, who I wasn't signed by, but I was working with, I said, I want it to be the next big thing

Like Hunger Games is done, Divergent is ending

I want this to be the next one

And I took that big ass swing

I wrote a check that my ass had to cash, [laughter] but I had to write the book

Um, and so I was absolutely in conversation with those sort of watershed stories

So for Hunger Games, >> but also a little bit X-Men

And then when you boil down X-Men, X-Men is also very much about >> people who are different, people who are oppressed, people who are misunderstood for what they are born as

And so all of that kind of amalgamated in there

I was also graduating college in 2012 into a recession with a film school degree and a lot of college loans

So that was a lot of that desperation and fear and pressure went into those books

It was also um Occupy Wall Street was happening

We were having all these conversations about wealth disparity in the United States that have only become >> more relevant

And so it's actually quite strange to have written a dystopian novel that was relevant >> 10 11 years ago that is now more relevant >> and kind of you know you would hope things like that art like that would kind of pump the brakes on things getting worse and yet >> here we are

Um [laughter] >> here we are ladies >> here we are as far as world building um I love that's my favorite part and I get into the nitty-gritty you know the economics and the trade routes and the maps and all of that

Um, but my challenge is when to pull back because I feel like it's very easy to overwhelm a reader, especially in the beginning of a book

And I want the approach almost of it's the frog in the pot

I want to increase the temperature of the water so slowly you don't know you're being boiled

And then a 100 pages in when things click and you understand the world, you realize, wait a second, I didn't understand all this information you were given to me, but I internalized it and now I'm in it and I get it

Mhm. >> Um, fantasy is a really interesting balance of real and unreal and ordinary and extraordinary

And the the thing we're always trying to do is to make you believe it

To make you believe that these people exist, that this world exists because that gives everything stakes intention because then you're invested because you believe it

We've all read books where we're like, I don't really buy this

Um, I had a professor who gave us some advice on writing genre and she said you can get an audience to believe one unbelievable thing and everything else to the best of your ability has to kind of make sense with that thing. >> So when you have a book that you read and you're like okay I accept it the dragons exist and then three books in or 300 pages in they throw in also time travel and you're like wait a second [laughter] >> that's too many things

But if it's under the umbrella of like everyone has a super superhuman power or these people have superhuman powers, you have more room to move within the suspension of disbelief >> and with silver. >> Yeah. >> They Okay, I understand what you're putting down

Yes. >> So, when I say, you know, it's a dystopian future and some people have evolved to have superpowers, you're like, great

Got it

I I'm with you on that. >> Okay. >> And so, the original version of Red Queen, the first draft, ended with Shade popping up having time travel powers, not teleportation

And up until that moment, my agent, who was reading it at the time, but hadn't signed me, >> was like, "Everything's great

We got to fix that ending." >> Why? >> Because she was right

The time travel was too much. >> Okay. >> Yeah

And originally, I had this idea of Mare at the end of the first book gets switched with her future self >> and it was like, "No, that's too far. [laughter] That's too far." And we all hit those moments of like, "Too far, too much." So, with world building, you want to ease the reader into it. >> As much as I love an info dump and I'm like, I will talk about where [snorts] the coins are coming from. >> Well, I feel like that's a huge part

Within the first few chapters, we obviously are introduced to her

She is like this ball of fire kind of and she sneaks out and she meets this guy who's kind of like this golden retriever boy and he throws her the coins

Was there a thought process of how they were introduced to themselves? Like that I felt she didn't know who he was and I guess he didn't know who they didn't know they didn't know each other but then it became this thing where he was so infatuated by her that he had to find out who she was

Like how did that kind of evolve? >> So so much of my work is what we call paste

So it's tropes but also patchwork of other things

Like I I'm pulling on all the stuff that has inspired me or sort of existed in my head my whole life

Mhm. >> And Mar and Cal, especially their meat cute

It's reverse Aladdin the whole time

I'm just thinking she's Aladdin

He's Princess Jasmine, >> right? >> Yeah, guys

I never thought that inspired so much of Mar. [laughter] >> What? >> She's a street rat

She's a thief. >> Wow. >> Yeah, >> we love it. >> I never Wow, that never even even crossed my mind. >> Wow

But when you do put it like that, >> I know there's this really cool website

It's called TV tropes and it will break down every single piece of media you've ever seen into the tropes that it uses and then you can it's like Wikipedia for tropes and then you can click on that trope and it'll give you every other piece of media that uses that trope

It's really fun

You can go down a rabbit hole on TV tropes

But that was another like film school thing that we all knew about and then I took over into publishing was like you guys know about this website. >> Yeah, let me figuring out like has someone else done this the exact same way before? How do I put my spin on it? And I love writing with tropes because they create an expectation in the reader

And one of my favorite things to do is to subvert your expectations. >> And that's how I create my Mr

X and my twists is I give you something that you are already filling in the blanks on >> and you think is going to go one way and then it's very easy for me to be like, you thought he was the nice prince

You're so wrong

And that was my thing of like well okay in my opinion her and Cal obviously they're like you know he brings her apart into their world >> all that is happening obviously we have the whole other story line but then like they kind of dwindle and then Maven [clears throat] comes in

Why was like I guess just like walk me through that middle part of the book like when you were like okay I need to bring Cal down and they need to like kind of >> remove themselves so then M can come in and like scoop in and like save the day. >> You can always So I I love structure

I love story structure and writing knowing my act one, my act two, my act three

Act two I know the least

Act two is where the story really pulls itself together for me

So the beginning and the end I really know and the end of act two is usually the lowest point for the character. >> Um and so I know what that that turning point is going to be as well

And also the middle of the story is also usually a big hinge point as well. >> I fill in the blanks from knowing those pieces

And so you can look at it from a bird's eye view and say I need this to happen from these characters

I need this person to come in

I need this thing to happen

But then naturally when you're actually like in the meat of it, things kind of change and some voices are louder than others and some characters surprise you

And so characters like Maven or then later on in the books Evangelene were so suddenly loud and I saw them so much more clearly

Cal is actually one of my more difficult characters to write because he is the only one with I mean as far as all of the characters go a somewhat sound moral compass and those characters are really hard to make interesting in comparison to the morally gray the villains >> in because it's just they're so like by the book >> yes they're so by the book but there's also a level of wish fulfillment I think in the morally gray characters because we all have those moments where we wish we could flip the switch and just be like no I'm not going to do this I'm going to do what suits me best instead of what I'm being told to do

Whereas those capital G sort of good characters, >> they're predictable, so it makes them boring. >> So, you have to work really hard to make them not boring. >> Cuz I think about [sighs] >> maybe this is like a guilty pleasure, but sometimes when I'm reading and I'm reading those like morally great characters, I feel like I can almost like live my like morally self through them. >> There's a moment like writing Evangelene for me was >> I can get all my books out. >> That's actually funny

I feel like I would really strive off of that. >> We just have a little like sometimes I'll go to a rage room and like hit a bunch of plates

That's like my version of writing, [laughter] >> by the way. >> Okay, I want to talk about the plot twist. >> Okay. >> Always planned from the beginning was coming. >> It was my carrot scene

So, I know a lot of writers, they'll write, they won't write linearly

I have to write a linear story because I'm tracking the characters and they're developing as the story is going

I look at my story as the maze and the characters are the rats and I'm tracking how they run the maze. [laughter] >> You knew it from the beginning

I knew it from the beginning

So then how do you write? Do you write with like do you have to almost act like the plot twist isn't happening because you almost have to convince yourself that these characters are >> Oh, >> I know everything

I'm God. [laughter] >> But what's interesting is I was really trying to thread a needle of >> the best twists aren't the ones that come completely out of left field

The best twists are the ones when they happen and you sit back and think, "How did I not see this coming?" >> Because then you look back and you see the breadcrumbs. >> Honestly, with him, you could like I remember thinking that it wasn't completely left field like we had no context to it, >> but I was like, "Oh, well, I guess it was kind of weird that >> Cal did dwindle off and then Maven came and kind of saved the day and all of a sudden he was so kind to her and so sweet." And there were characters that we ignored who were kind of trying to warn her >> like who? >> Like Julian's like he's her his mother's son and she's like well you you're prejudice. >> Yeah. [snorts and gasps] >> Um Wow. >> Yes

So in my opinion those are the best twists because those are the twists that actually require you to get one over on the reader. >> You know that when you're actually tricking the reader versus oh and then a meteor hit and there's no groundwork for that whatsoever

Obviously they could never see it coming

Mhm. >> I love when it's it's almost like a dance >> and I'm just staying one step ahead of you

But what's interesting about the Red Queen twist is I hear such a spectrum from readers and there's readers like you are like I never saw it coming or I was taken so back when it happened

And then I have readers who say I knew it from the very beginning. >> And so it's like how would you know that from the beginning? >> It goes back and forth

But that's it's also like you know the people who say oh I knew Bruce Willis was dead. >> Yeah

Makes sense

Yeah. >> No, [laughter] you didn't. >> Yeah. >> But to be fair, you know, I telegraphed it and some people picked up on it and some people didn't

I come from a family where we're always trying to find the twists in movies

My dad especially. >> Mhm. >> And so that I'm like, let it [laughter] go. >> Let it go. >> But you're you're it's it's evidence of everybody reads a book differently

Art is completely subjective

Everybody has a different experience of the same thing. >> Um, and there's no way to make everyone have a completely universal experience

And that's always a learning curve for writers, for artists, for anybody that you can't control how it lands. >> Wow

Yeah, that would be pretty. >> I feel like this is a part of my soul

Please [laughter] get it get it the way that I meant to say it. >> It did mean that I was always trying to kind of escalate and I think that's still the best twist I've written

And even [clears throat] while I was writing that first draft at a coffee table at my parents house and I thought no one's going to read this but I was like well if someone does this moment is really going to be cool and I hope I get to see that one day. >> Well you get you get to see it every day. >> People film themselves reading that chapter now and I just >> should have

I genu if I knew it was coming I would have but I remember just sitting there and being like >> what? >> Yeah. >> What do you what do you mean? Okay

Then similar similarly with that when did you realize like oh my god this book is actually doing something it's actually affecting people. >> It's interesting because it was my first book and in hindsight now with the experience I have I can see all of the signposts that were signaling your publisher is taking this really seriously and this book they're going to do everything they can to make it a big deal

I had a lot of experiences then which I just kind of thought, oh that's this is nor this is what writing a book is

I'm going on a book tour

Of course, that's what the movies say

And then later on you learn like that doesn't happen for everybody

This experience does not happen the same way for everybody

You being able to immediately not work and just work on books because of the book deal. >> Very very uh unique and lucky

Uh, so it it was almost like it was normal, quote, normal until maybe the third or fourth book and because I was just so in it

As soon as you write that first one, you're on the book of your schedule and it's just brutal and you're on the the event circuit. >> I will say the best thing I did was make friends with other writers because it's the only way you sort of understand the industry is having authors who are more veteran who have different experiences than you. like you guys can kind of compare notes >> and that was a lot of figuring out oh wait this thing that's happening is actually not how this should be happening >> or what do you mean they told you they don't do that they're doing that for me and so we don't have a union but it's not as close as it is that um having friends in the industry making friends with other writers and colleagues >> I it's also such a weird experience and it's really hard to talk to other people about it unless they're already going through it >> especially because it's such a dream job, but it is a job. >> And [clears throat] so we have this pressure to like not complain, to be humble, to never let them see you sweat, and to always be super super grateful for what we're doing, which we are

But that doesn't mean there aren't parts of it that aren't difficult or frustrating or things that go wrong that we want to be able to vent about. >> Um, so it's really important to have a group chat. [laughter] [gasps] >> Needless to say, the group chat is nice

I everything that you're saying I can like completely relate to [clears throat] that in my life because it's like again I have the best job in the world

I wouldn't trade it for anything, but it's still a job and there's still hard parts and there's still, you know, the overnight flights that you have to take and you land at 7:00 a.m. and then you're here and then you're there and then it's like it's incredible

I wouldn't change it for the world

But similarly to you, I'm so grateful that I have like a community of people that I can talk to about this because if I call my sister and rant to her, she'll be like, "Girl, no, read [laughter] the room." I'm like, "Okay, [music] now we're going to go into the second act, which is talking about Tempest, which is your new official first adult fantasy novel

I want you to give me the elevator pitch for this." >> Ooh

Okay

So, I'm still stress testing that one

You got Red Queen, which I am 11 years into, so it's really polished and really, really good. >> Okay

So, Tempest is about a fallen noble woman in a world inspired by the fall of piracy in the Caribbean

And she's given a choice by the returning conquering empire between execution for colluding with pirates or helping them track down the last great pirate captain who is mounting a rebellion and he also happens to be the only man she's ever loved. >> And we tell that story from both ends of the timeline

Mhm

Okay

So, this book obviously is a first. >> Mhm

In a lot of ways. >> Yeah, in a lot of ways

What do you think was the hardest first that you discovered while writing? >> The the dual timeline was tough, especially once I realized I had accidentally written two books instead of one. [laughter] That was really dumb. >> That was another question

How did you decide like was the So, okay, I'm picturing like two books right here

Yeah

Did you just like cut it right in half or did you have to change the end? >> A little bit and I had to because cutting it in half again, I like structure

I did want to cut it at where the natural midpoint was, but I didn't want the first book to feel like it was missing anything

I didn't want a reader to read it and without knowing there was a second book think, I'm very >> I'm not satisfied by this

There was no arc

There was no curve

There was no closure to whatever was going on here. and there it didn't break in a natural place

I didn't want it to feel like we were leaving off in the middle of a conversation

Yeah

Especially for one of the timelines

Um so there was some restructuring and then also just in general this had a much more intense [clears throat] edit process than I've had with my previous books and my editors really pushed me in a way that while being in the moment very frustrating made the book so much better

It gave me so much more time and room

But when I turned in that first draft of Tempest, which was 300,000 words, so yeah, double what it should have been. >> Um, strangely, one of the first things my editor said and my other editor in the UK, they both came back and were like, we actually want more

And for a book this long, that's not usually the note. >> And then we got into the conversation, well, how do we do that? because they said, "I want you to have more time with these characters and how like the scenes really breathe versus like the break neck pace that you have to keep to even get to where you are in the story." >> We also started talking about the production side

So, the physical aspect of printing a book that long, things get very, very dangerous

Like the glue on the binding of the book won't hold that many pages sometimes, and you're worried about it falling apart

You're worried about how thick it is on the shelf because you want to be able to have three of them facing out

And if there's they're too big to stack stack three, Oh, >> they won't shelf them. >> It's things like that where you're like, "Wow, never even think of that." And then we also had, you know, hey, we can't spray the edges of a book that's longer than 180,000 words. >> And I'm thinking, [clears throat] I can't make the book better, flush it out, add more, and then cut 100,000 words and then not even get it to where it needs to be for sprayed edges for straight edges. >> So, it was a really easy decision once we had all of that information um from the production side and then from the editorial side

And then it was the question of, okay, because it's a dual timeline, each chapter flips between before something and after something

And we're braiding those two things together

When it's one book, you can really do that

When it's two books, you've got to be more deliberate

And I wanted the beats to echo each other

I wanted those moments where a chapter ends and they're in this place 10 years ago and the next chapter starts and they're in that same place again 10 years later

And we have those cool. >> Again, I see it in my head. if there's ever an adaptation, you know, they step through the doorway and they're 10 years older and we're having the same conversation again or the same frustration or the something is echoing

I really love that idea

So, that took a lot of work

Um, a lot of people say, "Oh, was it so different writing >> adult versus YA?" >> Not really

Um, the biggest difference I see between my adult writing and my YA writing is the character themselves. quite obviously like she is an adult >> and in young adult books you're always going on a journey of self-discovery of figuring out who you are and choosing who you're going to be. >> The really cool thing about writing an adult and writing Cat is she knows who she is. >> She's very confident with it

You can you can tell that by her >> and I loved having that being able to juxtapose her in her earlier timeline to who she becomes and seeing how she changes and contrasting those two people and then also seeing her really >> accept her choices and survive with them and take them on as opposed to being in the process of changing things for herself

She she becomes who she is very quickly. >> I mean yeah. >> Yeah

So clearly this book was written in 2012. >> Yeah. >> This book over the past what year and a half? >> Yes

So the I sold that book on proposal

So Red Queen I wrote the manuscript first

That book [clears throat] I wrote the first >> I want to say like three or four chapters

I'm trying to figure out how it is now

It might be the first five chapters. >> Okay. and then also had a big proposal like a synopsis of the story, the world and um also been sort of like essentially a Pinterest board kind of give everybody the vibe. >> You have to you have to do that >> and sold it on proposal and that's kind of interesting because you know >> people can project what they think the book is going to be versus what it actually is once you write it. >> Wow. >> So I I sold it in June of 2024. >> Okay

Yeah

So that's like what 12 years

So clearly these are your like >> Mhm. >> YA readers and now when you had that come out that was you know 14 years ago and now these people have clearly grown up >> and now they're coming into this

Do you think that plays a role by any way? Do you think you catered to them specifically as readers? >> So I've had the really really amazing experience of growing up with my readers

I was 21 when I wrote the first 21 22 when I wrote the first draft of Red Queen

So, I was not terribly >> um separated from an actual young adult when I wrote those books

And I have readers now who I see at events who say, you know, I read Red Queen when I was in middle school and now I'm a lawyer and now I'm a nurse and now I'm a doctor

And I think, okay, I got another gray hair. >> But also, it is cool because I have grown up with you

I have advanced with you

The story I wanted to tell next is a story for you as you are right now. >> Mhm

And for me, as I am right now, >> I do think because a lot of people think once you go into adult, you're not going back to YA

It really is what the story demands to be

And the next story that is demanding to be written is a YA book in my head. >> But I'm preparing for the business side and being told, well, YA is kind of shrinking right now. >> My agent has already said, prepare for questions about can we age up the character from 18 to 19 or from 17 to 19. >> I know

And she's like, "And not even in terms of, you know, content, literally just the age of the characters so that they can sell it as adult versus YA." And I I am kind of scared of that shrinking and that idea that the industry is kind of abandoning teen readers because >> 10 years from now, >> I'm here, guys. [laughter] >> Don't stop, please. >> I think, you know, you're you're building these runways and if you abandon middle-grade readers, if you abandon teen readers, you're not going to have adult readers. >> It's very strange

Hm

I'm curious to see how that looks. >> I know

I do think I would hope the the way things happen is pendulums swing. >> Mhm. >> And I hope it's going to start turning because I do see a lot of readers saying where are the books for teenagers or where are the books that were like >> the YA of the past and I now there's a glut in this in one space

So people are naturally supply and demand going to the other space

So hope to catch that. [laughter] >> Um okay

Pirates of the Caribbean. >> [laughter] >> Did Jack Sparrow influence this book at all? Or did any character? >> All of them

My pitch for Cat, the main character of Tempest, is she's Elizabeth Swan if she was a stone cold >> And I say that in the most complimentary way possible. >> That is Yeah. >> Yeah

But there's definitely shades of Norington

I quite liked the the the pirate the Navy captain >> who you're like he's the he's the antagonist but he's not really and I get where he's coming from and I think in the original we're going to go back the original Pirates of the Caribbean fandom there's a lot of love for William Norington James Norington >> um [laughter] I was in the fanfiction spaces in those days I think we there's and I was an Orlando Bloom girl so really of course of course it was 2003 I 13 years old

Orlando Bloom. >> I was one years old. >> Oh my god. >> I [snorts] was one. >> I wish you could have lived through the heyday of the Orlando Bloom dominance >> because we really dominate the industry. >> Legalis

We had Pirates of the Caribbean

And then it was we went through this wave of like if Orlando Blooms in the movie were going like Kingdom of Heaven. >> Wow. >> The director's the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven

I'm going to I'm going to tell you something

So, a friend of mine and I, it was at her house

It was not at my house. >> Mhm. >> She had a shrine >> that we both added to. [laughter] >> You know what? >> But who didn't who didn't have a shrine? We had our action figures

We spent New Year's Eve not going to parties, but with our little Lord of the Rings action figures. >> Listen. >> Oh my god. >> Here's the advice I give because I get asked, you know, what's your advice for teenagers? And I say, what makes you weird now will make you successful later

I strongly agree with that. >> I was a weirdo. [laughter] >> Okay

And I figured out how to monetize that >> and it works. >> It works for now

It works. >> I feel like with people in my life, I >> I definitely had some weird interests as a child and then I meet people who have similar interests or maybe I didn't fully gauge in the interest because I knew it would, you know, people at school already I was a prime person to bully so I didn't like outwardly go and talk about my weirdo interest. on our geekiness. >> But then now I meet people people who have similar interests and I was like so I wasn't a weirdo

Everyone else >> Well, you have those things that you say in conversation and then you're like >> you give them the hint and see if they pick up on it. >> That's always fun when you realize, wait a second, >> you also like the [laughter] >> Oh my goodness. >> Pirates of the Caribbean

I just will always I will never ever be able to forget the feeling that I felt when I saw that movie for the first time in theaters. >> And at the time, everybody went into that movie, even me as a 13-year-old, >> um thinking, "This can't be good

It's based on a a ride at at Disney." And then [snorts] suddenly it was getting a blockbuster like treatment. [clears throat] >> It was the time when you just went to the movies every weekend with your family

That was what my family did

And then you go in, lights go down, two hours later you're clawed to the seat

Like I just went on a pirate adventure

I was on the Black Pearl. [laughter] I fought Captain Barbosa

And the the you know, you have the moment where he looks at the compass

Bring me that horizon

The credits come up and I want to feel that feeling for the rest of my life

And every book I write, I'm chasing that feeling for you

I'm chasing putting you in that space where you think, what just happened to me? and you have to kind of collect the pieces and get your life together again

And then hopefully you look back with like something new that you've brought out of it, some perspective, some difference

But I always want to have that moment where I'm putting you on the roller coaster and you're mine for the next two hours or however many hours it takes you to read the book

Like you're in my world >> and you're seeing through my eyes

And I I love those movies where you just do it

And it's a very rare experience

Pirates of the Caribbean, >> I think, was the sharpest because it was unexpected. >> Some movies you go in and you're like, "This is going to be good." >> Yeah

I know this is going to be good or I'm already invested in some way and that was one of the last ones where >> yeah there was IP it was based on but it was very light and and they really took a swing with those movies. >> Wow. >> And then suddenly they were a phenomenon. [snorts] [sighs and gasps] >> So you love Orlando Bloom >> love and Hawkeyes in general

When you're writing [laughter] when you're writing do you have like a list of men that you're visioning for each characters or does it because obviously cinematic

So, for Red Queen, I didn't

And then when I wrote my next trilogy, Realmreaker, I did. >> Okay. >> Just to help in terms of I was struggling because readers would ask, "Who's your fan cast?" And I'd be like, "I don't know." [laughter] >> And so going into the next one, I'm like, "I got to have a fan cast. >> I got to I got to have this cooked." >> And then with this one, not so much

Again, I think it's just harder to to have a certain person in your head, especially for the pro like that expressed purpose of just being able to tell someone

I want I do want readers to have their own images of everybody and I I know what it's like to read a book and have that image [clears throat] of someone in your head and then say the movie gets cast and you're like, "Well, that's not how I pictured them." And eventually you warm up to it, but I never want to have that much control over you in that way

It's more about taking you through the momentum of the story versus making sure you're picturing Chris Hemsworth at every every every moment. >> There's shades of many people

I [laughter] will say I did get asked, you know, who would you cast and the only person I who came very sharply to me and this was an impossible cast because she's now too old to play the younger part, but it was Emily Blunt for Cat. >> Probably my favorite female actress. >> Really amazing

And I think she's got such a cool >> she's quiet but very stern and very strong at the same time

And then also another one I thought of was Sophie Turner especially because >> as Sansa Stark I think the journey she went on that character she does it very very well. >> Yeah

Okay

Last question

Big question. >> Power

We're going to talk about power because obviously in Tempest she has power

She loses power

She's figuring out how to gain this the it back

Power is something as women we kind of have to take and we have to choose that we're going to take it cuz if we're going to wait on someone else to give it to us, we're never getting it. >> Yeah

And we also have to exercise power within the bonds of a world that's not built for us. >> So sometimes you have to figure out really creative ways to be powerful

Um, it was actually a huge calculation of mine in all of my work because I started writing Red Queen where people quite literally have superhuman powers and the women are very physically strong

Like they can kick your ass. >> And as my career has progressed, I'm writing women who maybe don't have superhuman powers, but are still physically very strong

And now in Tempest, I've gotten to the point where it's like physical strength is not a factor for her

She is very much a woman in the bonds of the world that she is a part of and that's not going to be something that naturally she would be a part of. >> How do you still write a strong female character? Because for a lot of audiences when you hear strong female character you think physically strong

Yeah. >> You think Arya Stark

I'm [snorts] thinking I want to show the full spectrum

Arya Stark to Sansa Stark

How do we get between those two characters? And so while it's really really gratifying to write a character like mayor who can electrocute someone why who has what woman has not wanted to be like zap to >> I want to do it every single day >> all the [laughter] time every day >> I can give you a list >> but then to write a woman who does not have that in her arsenal >> who has no arsenal except for what's up here >> it's difficult but it's much more interesting to me um and I really have to work hard to make her still formidable in a world where she's not physically a threat. >> Wow. >> Yeah

So, it was a challenge >> and you're also bouncing against the sort of wish fulfillment that we all have when we read a book where we want to feel powerful

We want to feel in control

We want to kind of project ourselves a little bit into that role

And who wouldn't want to be the warrior, the queen, the the superhum, >> the like ingrained >> Yes. the like >> power that you already have

Um, so you have to still make it interesting to be a woman who doesn't have any of those things, but still feels like someone you want to be. [music] >> We're playing um, Truth or Drink with Victoria Aiard

Okay

Name a book talk author that you've actually never read

Truth or drink. >> Oh no

I That's quite a lot

A book I'm trying to think who's like a book talk author. >> I don't want to throw anybody under the butt

You don't have to. >> Okay. >> Who do you think Mare should have ended up with? >> It makes it clear in Broken Throne. >> Well, Cal like guys, >> hold him boy [laughter] herself. [gasps] >> Say one nice thing about a book that you've hated. >> Beautiful cover. [laughter] >> Simple

Honestly, >> that can apply to a lot of books

Mine, too. >> Okay

Um, oh, tell us what your next book is about. >> Oh, so Beyond Tempest, the YA duogy that I really want to write is somewhat Mary Queen of Scots inspired and there are dragons. >> Bringing in the fashion. >> Okay

Name a name a Bravo housewife that you relate the most to. >> That I relate the most to

Oh, >> how much time do we have? [snorts] >> Okay. in the way that Sutton gets super awkward and anxious

I can see myself in Sutton from Beverly Hills

I really saw myself in we're going deep

So, Real Houses of Dallas, Dr

Tiffany and Tiffany was really made fun of and ganged up on by the other women and she was a very smart like very successful doctor

And these other women >> really, you could tell were threatened by that and kind of came after her

And she they she said in a lot of her interviews like, "I felt like that nerdy kid in class again being ganged up on by the cool girls." And I was like, Oh, [sighs and gasps] I see

I see you, Tiffany. >> I relate I relate to this. >> So, yeah

So, second tier like canceled housewife. [laughter] >> Her niche. >> Not her second tier canceled housewife

Her show was second tier and cancelled cuz they were so mean to her and kind of racist. >> What was the thing that you Googled the most during the writing process of Tempest? >> Ooh

I had open at all times a window with a cross-section of a ship so I could see every room of a ship and I found one that was very similar to the ship I needed to be on like a third rate ship of the line

This many cannons, this many masts, this was essentially in my head the Covenant and I could say, "Okay, they're in this room

She has to go down." And so it had also labeling of every single part of the ship. >> And so I knew, you know, this is the Taff rail

This is the mizen mast

This is what that's called

Yeah

And I just had that to refer to all the time

But I had so many research tabs and books and things open all the time

I got to go on a research trip to the Bahamas. >> Bahamas

I saw that

That's a great research trip, by the way. >> Yeah. >> Um, name a character from your own book that you would never be friends with in real life. >> Oh, you know, I have to know

I have to love something about all of them, I guess

And I guess there's a really creepy priest in the Realmreaker books >> called Ronin

And at some point he like rips out his own eyes. >> Yeah, definitely not. >> So like weird. [laughter] >> Too much

You're doing too much. >> Too much

Enough

Do your best pirate voice. [laughter] >> Drink

I would drink too

TBH. >> Okay

The end

Well, thank you so much for watching this week's episode with Miss Victoria

Please let me know what you think about this

I have personally been excited for this episode for seriously way too long

Ever since I finished it for the first time, I was like, I need to know why

Um, and if you have any thoughts, comments, questions, concerns, let me know and we'll answer them

Love you guys

Bye. >> [music]